»ªÌå»á

Hamas’s October 7 attack set in motion a high-stakes confrontation in the Middle East, with Iran and its proxies waging a multifront campaign against America’s allies. Meanwhile, a disturbing surge in global antisemitism has amplified political tensions far beyond the region, straining international alliances. The future of the Abraham Accords, the role of the United Arab Emirates and other Gulf states, and the broader fight against extremism stand at a pivotal crossroads.

What do these shifting dynamics mean for United States foreign policy, and how will they shape Trump administration’s approach to the Middle East?

Michael Doran, the director of Hudson’s Center for Peace and Security in the Middle East, will join Amjad Taha, a UAE-based political strategist and analyst, to examine the evolving strategic landscape and the prospects for broader Arab-Israeli normalization amid shifting regional dynamics.

Episode Transcript

This transcription is automatically generated and edited lightly for accuracy. Please excuse any errors.

Michael Doran:

I am a senior fellow here at the »ªÌå»á where I also run the Center for Peace and Security in the Middle East and it is my profound honor, to welcome you, Amjad Taha.

Amjad Taha:

Thank you.

Michael Doran:

You are a leading UAE-based strategist and political analyst. You made history by leading the first independent youth delegation to Israel after the signing of the Abraham Accords. You are a ubiquitous figure in the media championing peace and normalization with Israel. Your journalism has reached millions. I think everyone who is interested in these subjects has seen you whether they know your name or not, hardly a day goes by that I don’t go on social media and see you on CNN, Fox News, Sky News, or Newsweek.

You had a recent analysis of the Muslim Brotherhood in the West that went viral with many, many millions of views. I’m going to ask you about that in a minute. And you have a 2024 book, The Deception of The Arab Spring, which analyzed how the movement was hijacked by extremist forces. And in general, you urge a deeper understanding of the Middle East’s evolving landscape and your insights on governance and security, diplomacy are shaping the dialogue both in the Middle East and here in the United States and in Europe. So welcome. It’s wonderful to have you.

Amjad Taha:

Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you.

Michael Doran:

I don’t know why when I watch you on the media, I thought you were older than you are. What I’m really struck by here is your youth as I’m speaking to you. Let me just start by asking you that, why does somebody your age, your young age, you could be out, I don’t know, starting a business or something and instead you’re spending all this time arousing an enormous amount of hatred, I’m sure. You must get an enormous amount of hate. There are people who love you, but if they love you that much, then there are people who hate you. No?

Amjad Taha:

Well, I come from a place in the Middle East. The Middle East is quite challenging, but then in the same time, you look into UAE and you start having that light and hope in that darkness, let’s say. And the country of mine, UAE makes that inspiration to come out more and more.

The fact that I think it’s that every human has issued, the least I can say, I try to send that positive and optimistic message to the rest of the world. And the fact that we had a great experience in UAE, we developed, we started from a desert, just like for example, the state of Israel started with mud. We built and we built through knowledge and mind and suffering and so much. And while we were building there was war around us.

It was in Afghanistan, there was in Iraq and Iran and all the countries. And as civilizations start moving and the Western civilization, the Ottoman civilization, the Turkish civilization, which gave so much into the region, the Persian civilization. And then we have to some modern, as some define the clash of civilization.

In between all that, we are the celebration of love, the celebration of life, the celebration of science. We are trying to while . . . And then you spoke about the youth, young yet trying to be there and speak about, for example, countering antisemitism in the Middle East and other world.

That’s because we come from a vision, for example. While we, in UAE, our founder, Sheikh Zayed wanted us to reach all the way to Mars. So he sent us to amazing universities and states such as DC to learn, to become scientists and come back to UAE and start building to reach Mars. While we were doing all that, there were some on the other side digging tunnels to kidnap babies as eight month years old.

It’s a two different vision, but in the same time what we try to say to the rest of the world, to the rest of the humanity, yes, you can have hope. Yes, as a young person, when you have knowledge, you should share it with the rest of the world. And yes, if there is hate, but for hate, you only stand with love. You stand against that with love, you stand against that, to be the spokesperson of baby Kfir, an eight-month-years-old baby is really amazing thing to do, either you are from Saudi, UAE, Bahrain, Morocco is much better than you stand to be the spokesperson of Sinwar or the kidnapper of that baby. That’s where we stand.

Michael Doran:

Do you think that among your generation in the Arab world, in general, do you think you are speaking for the majority or are you speaking for a minority?

Amjad Taha:

I think it’s great to be from the creative minority and in the same time the Arab world, that’s the definition I argue with sometime. And I think the Arab world is very different from each other. The terminology Arab putting us all under one color, it’s unfair. Be looking at Bahrain and then you look a successful story of UAE. You cannot compare that with Yemen or Iraq or Syria. We’re very different.

In terms of the tribes, we can be connected, but we’re also very different. In terms of the diversity that exists, for example, the amazing diversity that exists in Morocco, the Berbers, the Amazigh, the Arabs, and how they created this amazing kingdom and country and how they’re thriving. It’s very different all the way to Lebanon.

Michael Doran:

You know that our center has a particular appreciation for Morocco. Did you know that?

Amjad Taha:

I’m aware of it.

Michael Doran:

Oh, you’re aware of it. Because you just got some big points here. You scored big points.

Amjad Taha:

From the social media posts that you have on your platforms. But in the same time, see, this is when we say Morocco has been thriving, for example, as an Arab country, through the diversity that it exists, be it the French, be it the Amazigh, be it the Berbers, the Arabs, and it thrived.

In the same time on the other side, Lebanon, Christians, Muslim, and then you have the French and they have the Arabic, but they have not been thriving. So putting us all under one umbrella is unfair. What’s preferably better terminologies to use is those countries by the name of the country, South Emirati, Moroccan, Egyptian. That would be a fair one.

To your question, do I speak for the majority? I don’t think so. But do I speak for the creative minority and the people who hope for peace? Yes. And the best example of that, myself, I’m sitting on the stage, but also we have people from UAE, [inaudible] Tunaiji, all the way from a podcaster in UAE speaking for woman rights, [inaudible] or Obaid Al Zaabi, from the youth, Maitha, who has been doing many researches on education and so on. All these people are from the state of UAE coming all the way here seeking knowledge and the same time sharing their beautiful experience that we had.

And the fact that how best example of that is how Abrahamic Accord has successfully been standing, even though after the atrocities that happened on the 7th of October.

Michael Doran:

It must be very hard for you, or well, let me not assume it. But your voice calling for normalization friendship with Israel, it’s particularly difficult to make those arguments now in the middle of a war when there are so many images all across the Middle East of Gazans suffering. The number of media outlets that are set against your message is really enormous and it must be having an effect on public opinion. Everything suggests that to me, should I see that differently?

Amjad Taha:

In many aspects it does, but in the same time an example of that, when we had the Abrahamic Accord, we didn’t want the Abrahamic Accord, for example, to be exactly like the accord peace, I would say, or a ceasefire rather between Jordan and Israel, the state of Israel or between Egypt and the state of Israel.

Michael Doran:

Right.

Amjad Taha:

The reason for that, I say it’s a ceasefire rather than peace. It’s only peace when people to people. When an orthodox Jew can go all the way in Oman or in Cairo and freely move around where he will not be insulted, where people will actually be . . . where he can actually open his market, kosher market in the middle of Cairo or Oman. Can he do that right now? No. Then that’s not peace. That sounds like a ceasefire to me.

For us, no, we wanted peace and our leadership wanted a full peace. And because the leadership wanted this, and you see the people, the first thing the people did, they welcomed all various background of the Israelis, be it the Jewish, be it the Jews, be it the Christians or the Muslim, Arabs, Israelis into our homes, into our businesses and so on. Where we reached, we have 300 Israeli companies right now exporting, importing, and working from Dubai, from UAE where we have over from three to 7,000 Israelis or Jewish and the Jews and the Arabs and Christians moving to UAE and living there where we have the synagogue right next to a mosque, right next to a church that the Abrahamic family has.

So when it comes to that, when it comes to internally as UAE, we are enjoying that. We are having that and it’s only people to people will work. When it’s people to people, it works very well. But when it comes to the media and that’s the media from outside, they have a whole different perspective about the Abrahamic Accord and also the suffering of the Gazan.

We stand with the Gazan people and we support the Gazan people, but in the same time our humanitarian aid reached all the way to every house in Gaza and 14 tons of humanitarian aids. And the fact that we built a field hospital on the borders of Gaza, the fact that we had so many of . . . even one case of children, over 80 children who are suffering critically from cancer, because of the Abrahamic Accord and the relationship that we have with the state of Israel, diplomatically, we communicated with them and we had the children who are suffering from cancer sent all the way to Dubai, where right now they’ve been treated rather than being used as a human shield by Hamas and where they will be killed by the rockets or other.

So there is that exists and we’re very optimistic about it, but when it comes to media, media has failed many, many minorities and nations around the world not just us.

Michael Doran:

Do you find yourself to be personally threatened? Are you receiving a lot of death threats that you take seriously?

Amjad Taha:

I live in the most safest place in the world, that’s Abu Dhabi, and then Abu Dhabi is a very safe city. And the people actually . . . That’s a very good question, is the people-

Michael Doran:

You also travel around.

Amjad Taha:

Yes.

Michael Doran:

You go to places like Washington DC-

Amjad Taha:

This is why I’m saying zooming in and zooming out. Zooming in Abu Dhabi, we are in the safest place. In fact, you find the Iranian and Israeli, they go to a Russian restaurant meeting with a Ukrainian, fine. We have that. Maybe not in the White House, but that’s we . . . But we have that in the UAE. And in fact, a Muslim that moves into UAE becomes more open-minded and liberal. However, I find it very difficult when he goes to some places, in some states here let’s say, or in UK, in London, it becomes more extremist and that tells you the state of the mind and the regulations and the rules and the community because our educational system supports diversity and tolerance and it has been reviewed and changed in many times, but in various areas in, for example, here or in London or various places in Sydney, west Sydney, for example.

No. You have a segregated society that goes also books and education of radical Islamists all the way into the West. So in terms of the threat towards myself online, you do get messages from people all the way in the West Bank or in Lebanon or in Syria where they send all those threat messages and that and in response to that, we either share the knowledge, and in respond to that, I have visited West Bank and Gaza and the state of Israel 17 times.

Michael Doran:

What about the Iranians? What about them? Do you feel threatened by them in any way? Because your message runs against the policies of the Islamic-

Amjad Taha:

The threat of the Iranians I think it reaches you before it reaches me. They’re against knowledge. They’re against your institution. They’re against all the civilization. So it’s not towards an individual itself, it’s towards anybody who supports normalization, anybody supports peace, anybody supports dialogue, tolerance, coexistence, all that. It’s against the Iranian regime itself because the Iranian regime does not believe that the rest . . . It lives on the crisis of others.

So as much as there is crisis in the region, Iranian regime will thrive. And if there is no crisis, there is not much the Iranian regime can give Iran itself. Iran is a country that made of minorities, be it the Baluch, the Kurds, the Arabs, the Azeris, all those, the Turkmens, and that’s almost 70 percent of the Iranian, which is it creates all the borders of Iran inside and then the Persian right in the middle of Iran, Tehran, Isfahan and all these areas.

That diversity that exists in Iran, Iran has not benefited from. And in fact, the Iranian regime sees a threat from it. That’s why it takes that threat. And we tried to take that threat away, export it, export it to other countries such as Iran started its revolution with a war with its neighbors. That’s where the GCC countries were . . . That’s where we started the GCC country was because of a threat by the Iranian revolutionary guards who said they will want to send the Islamic Revolution all the way to the Arab countries. And so we had to make the GCC countries to prevent this Islamist radical revolution.

Michael Doran:

When you think about the, what would I call it? The array of forces. There’s an old Marxist term, I can’t think of . . . which isn’t coming to mind. But when you conceptualize the fight that you are engaged in, you’re clearly a soldier. You’re an intellectual soldier. So you must have kind of conceptualized the battlefield. On the other side, who is the leading element against you? Is it the Iranian regime? Is it the Muslim Brotherhood? Is the combination of the two? How do you conceptualize your adversary?

Amjad Taha:

I would say, look, recently, and you can see this. All forces of extremists are working together and I think various places have been showing this.

Michael Doran:

Your religion is one nation.

Amjad Taha:

The fact that, for example, the Muslim Brotherhood when they came into power in Yemen or when they came into power all the way in Egypt. Morsi’s first destination outside Egypt, it was towards Iran and Iran welcomed him, supported him. Al-Qutb’s books, the Muslim Brotherhood’s founders books has been translated in various languages and printed and spread all around the world by the Iranian regime itself.

Many of the Muslim Brotherhood’s members, and there are about 26 of those, at least, the leaders. They live in Tehran right now alongside some of the leaders from al-Qaeda who are wanted by even the United States of America. So recently there is instead of there is Shia and Sunni rather, Iran does not look at this. That’s why Iran supports the Muslim Brotherhood for armed forces in Gaza, which is Hamas and-

Michael Doran:

Radical Sunni organization?

Amjad Taha:

Yes. Radical Sunni organization.

Michael Doran:

Iran has this ability to bridge the gap between Sunnis and Shiites between Persians and Arabs.

Amjad Taha:

It doesn’t just utilize it, let’s say. So any radical voices in the Middle East will be supported by the Iranians, be it communists, even tomorrow if we have a queer team of extremism in the Middle East, you will find the Iranian regime. It will support it.

Michael Doran:

Quietly?

Amjad Taha:

Quietly, of course. Yeah. As usual. And it has no limit because Iran thrives through the instability in the Middle East. That’s the only way forward with them because nations are not having a great relationship with us. My country, UAE, Iran is occupying three of our islands. Iran tried to occupy Bahrain. Iran has been taking some of the lands of the Arabs. Iran has been involved in Iraq.

In fact, if we’re going to look at the numbers, Iran has killed more than 2 million of the Iraqis, more than half a million of the Syrians as we speak. In total number of it that we reach in about four millions of the Arabs in Syria and Lebanon and Iraq and Yemen where Iran actually killed all those for the sake of what? Those are Muslim, some of them are Shia.

In Iraq war, for example, if we’re going to speak about Sunni and Shia, Iran killed more Shia than anybody else has done throughout the history. Iraqis who were killed in the Iraqi war, half of them they were Shia. We’re speaking about 2 million. So there’s 1 million at least which was killed from the Shia killed by the Iranian Islamist regime.

The point I’m making here is that Iran thrived only through the instability and support all the proxies. And right now, for example, while the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas is the armed forces operative is collapsing in Gaza, hopefully.

There is another militia that is building right now inside in Gaza, apart from Islamic Jihad and all the Sunni sect which supported by the Iranian proxy. They’re building Sabireen. It’s called another militia. It’s called Sabireen which is in patience. I don’t know what they are patient with, because if you’re a patient you’re not meant to be attacking, but they’re patient and attacking.

Michael Doran:

They’re patient, waiting for victory.

Amjad Taha:

Waiting for the victory.

Michael Doran:

Taking a long time but-

Amjad Taha:

It will take. There wouldn’t be a victory against a baby or against a woman that you would like to kidnap. There is no justice, nothing can justify kidnapping babies and women. But the point here is Iran now is moving all the way to Africa. See? This is what many are not focusing on.

Iran right now is supporting with drones and weapons the Muslim Brotherhood-led army in Sudan and also the other militias in Sudan. That’s in Africa and the Horn of Africa also in Somalia, Iran has been working with Al-Shabaab, which is in Kismayo in Somalia.

So there is a port here which is opposite Hudaydah Port in Yemen, which means Iran wants to control both sides of the Red Sea and also will largely affect negatively Canal Suez, which means they’re importing, they’re exporting. An Iran idea is if we can affect negatively the importing and exporting of the world, maybe the United States of America and others, they will come and sit on the table and start solving the problem better for when it comes to their nuclear deal.

Michael Doran:

I personally saw October 7th as an Iranian project. Clearly Hamas is the lead agent, but behind Hamas is Iran. Iran wanted to suck Israel into a war of attrition. I was surprised how many of my friends in the Arab world were resistant to seeing it that way, or they would say, “Yes, but . . .â€� And their emotion, it’s something, it’s the magic of the Palestine question. They didn’t feel that they were, in expressing their opposition to Israel, they didn’t feel that they were playing an Iranian game, whereas I saw them as being manipulated by Iran.

Amjad Taha:

Two weeks to three weeks if I cannot recall the dates before the 7th of October. MBS, the Conference of Saudi Arabia comes on Fox News and speaks about that we’re getting closer to the normalization, closer and closer, and there’s a dialogue through the White House stage, let’s say, or the dialogue that they were having all the negotiation preferably to use as a term.

And then comes the 7th of October, and I believe strongly that the 7th of October was a response to the Abrahamic Accord train, which started in the UAE, moved to Bahrain, Morocco and maybe Saudi Arabia had its own conditions, but is still following or inspired by the Abrahamic Accord, tried to join that train. And I think this is when the Iranian regime saw the threats and to see that also the project, which by the administration spoke about in the G20 in India, which was an idea of our beloved President MBZ.

And it was about the trade where it starts from India comes all the way through UAE, goes all the way to Saudi and Israel and so on, and then to Europe, which will connect Europe to Asia through UAE, Israel and Saudi Arabia and all the countries, and all the region would’ve benefited from this.

And of course, what he would cancel, he will cancel on the Iranians on the Arabian Gulf every time they stop the exporting and importing and threaten the United States of America. And also he will cancel on the Hudaydah Port where the Houthis are controlling. So it gives substantial to the exporting and importing of the world or alternatives rather, and where all these countries also will benefit.

When Iran saw that, they gave the green light to their proxy, filthy Hamas terrorists all the way to . . . And how you know it was very well planned, is the fact that Hamas soldiers or Hamas militias, terrorists, they could have just kidnapped the soldiers. They literally had the chance to do so and they could have just kidnapped forces in a certain age, and many people would’ve said, “It’s armed against militias, they’re struggling against the Israelis.â€� And that they can justify it in many manner. It would be very different scenario.

But what Hamas is been asked by Tehran is go and kidnap babies and women. That’s the only way you will see a stronger reaction from Israel. And in many manners of it, maybe a very harsh response to many where people actually, some suffered. We’re speaking about civilians also.

So Iran wanted this because when Israel responds harshly, let’s say, and when there is the dialogue now is changed from normalization to avoiding any dialogue with Israel and delaying the normalization or delaying it, at least for five years, where this administration or four years where this administration will be in, that would be the Iranian success and that’s what they wanted as a result.

Have they succeeded in doing so? I think to a point where they jeopardize the normalization, but in the same time they felt, for example, to jeopardize the Abrahamic Accord, to jeopardize our relationship. Our relationship with the state of Israel carried on.

The fact that 11 percent from 2003, 2004, there was the increase of trade. So we didn’t stop. The fact that the flights have not stopped because civilians from both sides, including the Muslims inside as Israel, they benefited from the flights of 106 flights weekly going-

Michael Doran:

I never would have predicted that the UAE flights would continue during this time.

Amjad Taha:

American Airline actually.

Michael Doran:

The American Airlines all dropped away.

Amjad Taha:

A congressman-

Michael Doran:

Turkish Airlines dropped away. It’s just the Azerbaijan, EL AL and UAE.

Amjad Taha:

A congressman spoke to me in one of the platforms about countering anti-Semitism. And he said when he wanted to post 7th October when he wanted to visit the state of Israel, he was struggling, United and American Airlines, they were not going there, British Airways, they all he tried.

And then suggestion from his office was, “Okay. How about you travel to Dubai. There’s a flight Dubai to Israel.� And that was the path and that’s how he fly to the state of Israel.

Michael Doran:

So I agree with you that they succeeded somewhat. They also lost a lot. Hezbollah has been cut down at the knees. Hamas is a shadow of it’s former self. Bashar al-Assad, who knows where he is. We can only guess.

Amjad Taha:

Putin knows.

Michael Doran:

Yeah. Putin knows where he is. And anyway, he’s not happy. His wife’s not happy. She has to spend a lot of time with him. And so, yes, things went badly for them. But having said that, there was a colossal intelligence failure. A failure to recognize that this normalization train was a threat to Iran and a failure to recognize that Iran and its proxies had tools that they could use to try to derail the train.

Who do you blame the most for that failure to imagine what Iran might do to push back? Put you on the spot. Who can I blame here? I’ll tell you the easy one to blame, Joe Biden, because he’s not around.

Amjad Taha:

Again, I wanted to start with Joe Biden but-

Michael Doran:

Go ahead. Go ahead.

Amjad Taha:

No. He doesn’t even know we’re having this conversation. Bless the former president. His soul is loved, honestly. He’s a great person. We can disagree on many but-

Michael Doran:

I didn’t mean to put you on the spot but-

Amjad Taha:

No. No. Let me explain it to you more frankly about this. The blame to put here to start with, where did the blame start? Abu Dhabi is a great alliance to the United States of America. We fight side by side against Taliban, against terrorists all the way in Afghanistan. We actually went all the way in Yemen, put our soldiers on the ground, boots on the ground, and we arrested al-Qaeda members and we eliminated so many of those, which in that we save the humanity and we work together with the intelligence of the United States of America in that field, countering terrorism. Okay.

Houthis sent his drones to Abu Dhabi and he targets the capital city of us. And then there is a silent mood all the way in DC, not much. There was not a strong message. And we speaking here during the Biden administration. This is where it started.

When Iran tests, this is the strongest alliance that you have there, your friend, and we targeted them with the drones and you’re not doing much.

Michael Doran:

Right.

Amjad Taha:

Which means I can push for more because to Iran, you don’t say, “Don’t do it.� You need to show what you cannot do.

Michael Doran:

Action speaks louder than words.

Amjad Taha:

What you cannot do because when you say don’t do it. Iran wants to test the limit.

Michael Doran:

Yeah.

Amjad Taha:

What is don’t do it? They throw rockets in Iraq and they wait for you. You’re not doing much. They will hit the minorities and they were targeting the minorities in Kurdistan and wait for you what you’re going to do. And then they ask the Syrian regime to behave in a certain way where Assad could have normalized with Turkey, but they ask him not to do so, for instance, and so on.

And they wait to see where is the limit. That’s the Iranian regime. When you don’t put limits, 7th of October happens. But when you put limits, such as when you target Qasem Soleimani, for example. After that, we didn’t have any Iranian proxy.

Iranian proxy at that point after Qasem Soleimani, the head of the revolution, Iranian Revolutionary Guards was targeted, we seen Iran as weakened and weakened and weakened and knew was very weak. And there was a revolution in the streets of Iran where the brave ladies, woman in Iran where they went on the street and it was a woman revolution rather, but then there was not much support for these people.

And so Iran plays a huge role in this. And the blame in here is a strong America, make your friends be assured and that they can fight against Iran. Because when America was strong, let’s say in the previous administration of Trump, when he was sending at least strong voices, we went and we were countering, we put boots on the ground, we were countering Houthis. But when the administration came in, Biden administration came in, the first thing they did, they removed Houthi as a terrorist organization.

I mean, the slogan of Houthi says, “Death to America. Death to the Jews. Death to Israel. Death to Britain.� If that’s not a terrorist organization and you remove them from a terrorist organization, where are you going to put them, as a human rights organization?

Michael Doran:

You have to admit that the Iranians, the Islamic Republic, it has a special talent for finding these fissures between people, these areas of cleavage and exacerbating them, where do you think that talent comes from?

Amjad Taha:

Well, it’s Persian rug. If you look at the details of the Persian rug, the politics of the Iranians or the Persian great civilization, if you look at the knit, how detailed is the Persian rug, it requires a lot of patience, a lot of details they pay attention to.

And also if we speak about the history of chess and all that, the Indian and the Persians, how they worked on this. They’re very smart nation and they have a very smart diplomacy also. But they’re just putting it on the bad side.

Michael Doran:

The destruction.

Amjad Taha:

The destruction side rather than the building side. And this is when we, as for example in UAE, we try to have with Iranians on various level is like less common talk, a dialogue, you’re a great civilization. You have a great youth, young, 70 percent of the Iranians are youth. You have so much to give the world if you put it on the right side. And there is so much inside Iran when it comes to tourism, when it comes to resources and resources and so much. What made those-

Michael Doran:

Do you have any hope that the people running the government in Iran will ever hear that message? I don’t.

Amjad Taha:

Well, we’re very optimistic so we keep that voice always. But then in the same time, we’re very realistic when it comes to that. The Iranian regime has been supporting terrorism, has not stopped, has not done so. And in fact, tried to target some of the ambassadors including the Saudi ambassador in DC where they plan to target him in one of the restaurants here in DC.

So all that, do we have hope? My hope is the fact that the Iranian people they can change that. But if you want to change in Iran, realistically when there is a movement inside Iran, a woman movement inside Iran, when there is youth are protesting, as much as statements the United States of America has made in the UN for the Gazan people, we want that much of statements for the Iranian people. As much as the international community protested and went in the streets supporting the Gazan people, our beloved people, our Palestinian people, as much as you do that, how about you do the same thing for the Iranian people?

If the Iranian regime saw that, the reaction would be very different. And even the people themselves, they can take care of that. Maybe you’re going to divide the regime from inside within the regime itself. When Shah went away, the ones that stood on the street and brought Shah down, the previous king of Iran, it was the actual revolutionary guards who they just changed the name.

It was the policing, let’s say, the army state. From Shah all the way to the Iran current Islamic regime, they just changed the ideology by the regime state. So maybe you’re going to divide it from within when they see enough power there is behind them. Maybe the same power that turned Julani to Ahmed al-Sharaa. I don’t know. Maybe. It’s possible.

But then again, the Iranian opposition, all around the world, they’re very weak also. The fact that you have Mojahedin. Mojahedin Khalq at one point, they’re Islamists. They’re still Islamists in the voice of theirs. And Iranian people are not very religious in terms of they were more open rather than to various religions, and they’re Muslim and they have Christians and then they have the Zarathustra and they have the Jews community and they have various religions inside Iran.

But see, Mojahedin is only communicating with the Islam side of it. And also remember at one point Mojahedin, they did help Khomeini to come into power and then they disagreed with him on various things and then they became the opponent. But how they inside Iran, they look at Mojahedin is the fact that Mojahedin, when Saddam invaded Iran, they stood with Saddam against their own people.

So they hear the nationalism and patriots, they will look at them, no. You stood with the Saddam against our nation regardless of disagreeing or agreeing. That’s number one.

Now we go to the Pahlavi’s. The Pahlavi’s are the former government of Iran. So the Iranian people look at it as like we tried that, we went against it in the street and then we brought mullalis. Maybe these two they both failed to run the government.

And in the same time when you look at the current king or the son of the king who is heading the opposition, the Pahlavi, his administration doesn’t have any of the minorities, the Kurds, the Arabs, the Baluch. And if you are not going to have that around you, it means you are not hearing all the voices of Iran.

That is what is missing from the opposition. And then you have the minorities, which are not united in Iran, even though they create all the borders of Iran and 70 percent of the population. If there is not an administration as much as United States and London succeeded to unite the opposition of Saddam in London and that amazing, the conference that they had and it was very . . . even though they were against each other, by the way.

If US can unite that and if the international community can push all that support, you don’t need arms in Iran, you don’t need to, well, rockets and airplane bombing. The people will do that as much as they did for the Iranian previous regime.

Michael Doran:

The UAE has a special relationship with the Baluch, doesn’t it?

Amjad Taha:

The Baluch, the large people of Baluch background, as much as we have Persian background and Arab tribes-

Michael Doran:

The police force though is made up of Baluch, is it not or heavily-

Amjad Taha:

No. No. It’s diverse. So what we have is our society is very diverse and we have various people from various background, be it the Baluch, be it the Persians, be it the Arabs, be it the Arab tribes, be it the Arabs of the urban.

So our society is very diverse and all are connected to the rest of the Middle East and we showing that it exists and we can live together and we can live side by side and we can thrive and we can build universities one of the greatest, and we can make New York University, often New York opens its other section all the way to Abu Dhabi and it has done so.

Michael Doran:

I mentioned that when I introduced you, you had this interview and you talked about the Muslim Brotherhood in the West. You got a lot of attention for that. What would you advise the West to do since it is incubating a lot of Middle Eastern extremism, what would you advise it to do?

Amjad Taha:

I wouldn’t say advise. I would say a comment.

Michael Doran:

What would you like to see happen?

Amjad Taha:

I think in a lovely, handsome institution and the institute and many intellectuals here, I will humble myself to say, a comment rather than advice. I think you all great with the civilization of yours and many researchers that you do, you have that, that huge impact. And me and you, we just discussed on various conversation and if it shows anything, yes, you all are aware of the Middle East and you are all aware of also the danger that comes all the way in your doors here.

The Muslim Brotherhoods, Hamas is the armed forces of it, number one. Muslim Brotherhoods have been causing many and supported all form of terrorism in the Middle East and also elsewhere, Al-Qaeda, ISIS and other organizations, Islamist organization, they all started with the manifest of the Muslim Brotherhoods and they took the manifest of the Muslim Brotherhood and applied it in action.

It’s quite dangerous. It has invaded some of the universities, some of the institutions and those voices are very smart and they camouflage in a sense of . . . It depends on, and they study the Western society in a great manner where they understand it very well and they know how to utilize it. They now have banking system, they now have real estate institution, educational institution, research centers, and they are growing and they’re growing and they’re also occupying and settling in many of those mosques where they control the voices.

Where instead of telling you, for example, be a civilized person that gives back to the country that gave you, they tell you to block the road for you to pray. We don’t have that. And the fact that these people are forcing the boycott, for example of certain states, they stand against rules, they can stand against rules and regulation.

They happily burned the beautiful flag of United States of America in DC, in New York and all this. And they want to make this a culture. You think it’s a freedom of speech but what they do is, and when you criticize them, they will censor your freedom of speech in the name of Islamophobia. And Islamophobia is a term as professor Ed Hussein amazingly explained in one of the pieces that he wrote in Politico and other newspapers.

Islamophobia is a term that the Islamists are using to censor your freedom of speech. The advice will be is a very simple term, very simple manner, ban the Muslim Brotherhood or your children will be the hostage of that propaganda where they will go into the street, burn your flag, stand against you, stand against peace, prosperity, tolerance, coexistence and so on.

It starts from the Muslim Brotherhood and then gradually, and there is a great research done by the, and a study of review done by the Parliament of Britain in 2015 when David Cameron asked for it. And he says that if you become a Muslim Brotherhood, you are more likely to become radical and a terrorist in the future. So you’re just a step or a tool away or a few years away from becoming a terrorist that bombs even this place.

Michael Doran:

When you think about your agenda right now, your personal intellectual political agenda, what do you see as your top priority? What do you see as your goal? What are you aiming toward?

Amjad Taha:

I wouldn’t say agenda. I would say sharing.

Michael Doran:

Well, your project, you have a sense of a mission?

Amjad Taha:

Yes.

Michael Doran:

Obviously, you’re somebody with a sense of mission, it seems to me. So what is your mission?

Amjad Taha:

I think the mission for us all, you, I and the rest, is to serve humanity, number one, and to share the great experience that we have.

I mean, coming all the way to DC, Muslim Brotherhoods are not banned, not banned. Muslim Brotherhoods are carrying all these terrorist attacks all the way in the Middle East. Islamic relief in US is collecting your funds, your money to support Hamas, to support former members of Al-Qaeda, all the way in Syria and all the places. It’s taken your fund.

Islamic Relief and the Muslim Brotherhoods are banned in the UAE, banned in Saudi, banned in Bahrain. You can’t be Muslim more than us. You can’t be Arab more than us. You can’t. You will not too. You will not be. And we banned them, so why not banning them?

The point I’m trying to make, we are all in a mission of serving humanity and saving humanity from all form of radicalism. And at the top of that is the Muslim Brotherhood.

Michael Doran:

So your mission, number one, is to combat-

Amjad Taha:

Mission Impossible.

Michael Doran:

. . . the Muslim Brotherhood. Well, you made me think it’s more possible when I hear voices like yours. But if you asked me, I would put Iran at the top, and then Muslim Brotherhood. Actually, I put the Muslim Brotherhood actually quite far down.

Amjad Taha:

The Muslim Brotherhood, there is no way for them to function without the Islamic regime and they serve each others. So instability in Egypt, Muslim Brotherhood, if they want to carry it, they train in Iran and Iran will fund that. Instability in Gaza, Iran supports the Muslim Brotherhoods and the Muslim Brotherhoods, they carry the atrocities

In Yemen, the Muslim Brotherhoods were at one point supported by the Iran and the Houthis on the other side and the Muslim Brotherhood both are working together to jeopardize the correlation of the Arab world to bring radicalism and they have been working together in this.

In various places, in Syria, Muslim Brotherhood right now they’re becoming part of the government and Iran was there, destroyed it. And these guys are being replaced. So Iran was the cause on this. So these guys are working indirectly or directly with each other and I think they served.

So the Islamists, let’s say, if they need fund to survive, Iran will be always there and has done so. And the Muslim Brotherhood throughout history right now and from Khomeini times, he start printing their books and spreading all their ideology all around the world. And they have connected in various places. In Tunisia, for example, they have done so. And in Libya and they’ve been working everywhere with each other.

Michael Doran:

And so normalization with Israel, you see as a way of attacking the Muslim Brotherhood ideology. Is that right? Am I understanding that correctly? Explain to me how you understand, because you’ve done it. You’ve been a very strong voice for normalization with Israel. How does that connect in your mind to this anti-Muslim Brotherhood mission?

Amjad Taha:

In fact, I think you also can relate to this. Muslim Brotherhoods are against all form of normalization and be it, for example, when we start normalizing at one point in 2017, �18, the relationship with the Arab states and Turkey wasn’t the best, the best way to put it. And then when the Arab states start moving to normalization, the Turkish governments kicked out many of the Muslim Brotherhood. And the Muslim Brotherhoods members, they start attacking the Turkish government, Erdogan and all this and so on.

So the Muslim Brotherhoods are always against normalization. And Iran, they say death to Israel and they do not believe in Israel as a state, will always be a sponsor and supporter of such a voice. So the enemy of normalization and stability, it’s the Muslim Brotherhoods with the fund and the support of the Iranians because they serve the same cause and the same perspective. That they both want to all go all . . . They have a vision, the Muslim Brotherhoods are and Iran, they have a vision where one day they will go to Jerusalem and behead all the Jewish children and the woman and create a state at the top of that.

So both have exactly the same vision and both targeted, for example, Egypt. Iran supported some of the terrorist attacks all the way in Sadat. Sadat when he went for the Accord or the peace agreement with the state of Israel, he was supported by Al-Azhar and in the same time, Iran supported the Muslim Brotherhoods to kill him.

And when they killed him, where are they right now? These members? All the way they live in Tehran. And Iran named a street in the name of the person who killed . . . Khalid al-Islambuli, who killed Sadat.

Michael Doran:

Islambuli.

Amjad Taha:

Islambuli. Who killed Sadat. And later on when Hamas wanted to, in 2011 and 2012 when they wanted to attack Egypt, they killed the soldiers on the borders of Egypt with Iran order.

Michael Doran:

I guess what I’m getting at, and I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but it seems to me what you’re saying is that you want to build a certain kind of tolerant society and one of the ways to move toward that is by pushing for normalization with Israel. So it’s not simply a foreign policy question, it really is because of the role that opposition to Zionism and the West plays in the ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood, when you push for that, you are pushing for a certain vision of the society you want to live in. Do I have that right?

Amjad Taha:

I think you’re correct on that. Plus the fact that we want to normalize with the rest, even Iran is welcome to normalize. It should normalize with the state of Israel and it should normalize with its neighbors to start with. And as we did with Turkey and as we did with others, is the fact that can we live together? Yes we can. Can we serve each other in interest? We can. Can we benefit from each other? A great economy in Iran, great civilization in Turkey and we have that too.

Can we work together? Yes we can. Can we come up with solutions such as [I2U2] Israel, United States and India and United Arab Emirates tried to come up with a project? Can we do that? Yes we can. Is it possible? Yes. But there are some obstacles and challenges and those obstacles and challenges are built by the Islamist radicals, be it the Iranian regime, be it the Muslim Brotherhood.

Michael Doran:

Okay. We’re going to open it up for questions. I got to ask you one last question. Your mother, when you talk to her, does she say to you, “Why are you out there making these arguments all the time? Why don’t you go work for an AI startup or something? Why do you want to be in the middle of all this nasty argumentation?�

Amjad Taha:

Well, definitely she doesn’t tell me about AI, my mom. She doesn’t know much about AI.

Michael Doran:

But is she happy with the path you’ve chosen or does she think you’re crazy?

Amjad Taha:

A mother is always a mother, she loves her son and always supportive and she always prays there for the safety and the noble voices that we try to support and be with. And she’s very happy.

Michael Doran:

So basically she thinks she should have done something else, that’s what you’re saying?

Amjad Taha:

But she’s very supportive of that.

Michael Doran:

Okay. What about your dad? What about your dad?

Amjad Taha:

She’s encouraging.

Michael Doran:

What about your dad? Does your dad think you chose right?

Amjad Taha:

Absolutely. They both are encouraging me right now to finish a book off on philosophy of peace.

Michael Doran:

Okay.

Amjad Taha:

So I think maybe that’s their message.

Michael Doran:

Okay. All right. So let’s open it up. But where did he go? There he is. Let’s go to Obaid here, because Obaid is one of those people who went for AI.

Amjad Taha:

Actually, Obaid, you may or may not have a question, but let me just invite you to express any observations you have, whether in the form of a question or in the form of a statement.

Obaid Al Zaabi:

Yeah. Thank you very much. This is a wonderful talk. I think I really appreciated the questions you have and the opportunity to be here. So in the Emirates, we have, as Amjad said, a very diverse country. We’re 11 million foreigners now and they come from all creeds, all religions, Orthodox Russians, Ukrainians, as Amjad said.

I think the big difference in our country is we don’t have so much historical baggage that really became a conflict position and conflict point when modern age reached the Middle East. I think there’s a lot of challenges that are facing Iran and Iraq and Egypt that ultimately are deeply economical. And I don’t think it’s simply an ideological situation, but there are groups that leverage this economic weakness like the Bolsheviks in the USSR, for example, to establish a total control.

And it is really unfair to miss the totalitarian nature of some of the situation in there. I think you can draw parallels with North Korea and some of the states in the Middle East right now because the average person is terrified of his government, the Assad regime or Iran or these different places.

And that’s kind of the deeper message is it isn’t really an ideological Islamic battle, but rather an economic and totalitarian battle. And the people of Iran are very much, as Amjad said, seeking freedom and liberty, but it’s not coming and it’s very much an unlikely outcome at this stage. So I think this is an important part is that I was once involved in discussion around Libya.

Michael Doran:

Around?

Obaid Al Zaabi:

Libya here in the US a couple of years ago. And the US perspective was very much divide the country into three states. Each one can be autonomous so and so forth, but even those three states are primarily not very good for the people who live there.

Michael Doran:

Right.

Obaid Al Zaabi:

So I think the US needs to consider that element when making their decisions because it’s kind of the fine line between interventionism and also spreading the values of Western philosophy. I think that’s the real struggle. And you have a stark difference sometimes between the left and the right over here, and which priorities come first?

I think the president, Donald Trump has a very good understanding of this and he understands that liberty is not purely institution building and it’s actually more about the quality of the leaders in those countries and how they approach freedom. The UAE has been receiving a maximum economic freedom score since its inception.

You can own land, you can sell land, no one can take your property, you can open a business, your taxation is extremely low. So we’re an example of from an economic perspective, an extremely free country with a pegged currency, so there’s no inflation run rampant, which is extremely common in the region and that works to make the country prosperous.

When you look at other countries like other countries in the region that have massive debts, which are not actually changing the policies. And this comes to the final point I think I’d make about this, which is about the challenges of the Middle East and exporting food basically. A lot of the conflict is driven by the fact that many countries have very concentrated foreign reserve income streams, either in oil or in different kind of activities, which concentrates the power in that country into the hands of very few.

I know Amjad would mention the Shah and the Pahlavi family, while they were able to create such a schism between themselves and the other groups through massive oil wealth and I think this continues to persist in being a problem. But in the Emirates, especially as we are huge investors in artificial intelligence and energy capacity, we have four active reactors and our nuclear program is a model for transparency and adherence to international norms.

I think the situation is going to change dramatically with the introduction of AI and massive energy competencies, especially Microsoft’s new supercomputer. This is really going to change the game because I don’t think it’s so much a religious-

Michael Doran:

Sorry. Could you just say a few words as to why this is going to change the game?

Obaid Al Zaabi:

So it is my perspective-

Michael Doran:

Because you’re involved in AI yourself, right?

Obaid Al Zaabi:

Yes.

Michael Doran:

Yeah.

Obaid Al Zaabi:

Yes. I work-

Michael Doran:

You took the path he should have taken.

Obaid Al Zaabi:

Yeah. Well-

Michael Doran:

In the eyes of his parents.

Obaid Al Zaabi:

It’s more exciting. I mean, honestly, I think a lot of those groups that are powerful today are powerful purely on their ability to export oil at very high prices and buy weapons at very low prices. And in the future, once AI is fully developed, the advantage of population is going to be a burden. Having a hundred million people but not enough energy to provide them all AI resources will make a high population that’s underdeveloped, a huge liability, and that the balance of power will massively shift away from populous countries.

Michael Doran:

So you’re saying that AI is actually going to empower the average citizen in the UAE and give them economic opportunities that will not be available to someone in Iran, is that what you’re saying?

Obaid Al Zaabi:

Yeah. And that’s going to be a huge factor because you’ll be able to scale your work a thousand times, a million times and other people won’t be able to compete with you. Sam Altman talks about this building a billion-dollar company with one man. There’s people running investment funds where they have multiple AI investor, analysis bots, reporting to an AI council, which then gives recommendation to an AI stock picker.

And it’s becoming like a whole building full of employees who work 24/7 and they’re all artificial intelligence with a narrow capability and so-

Michael Doran:

I talked to a friend of mine who’s a scientist and a very world renowned scientist, and he told me last weekend. He sat down and did some work over the weekend with AI that it would’ve taken him before AI a year together with his whole lab to do the work. It’s mind-boggling.

Obaid Al Zaabi:

I don’t know how to code, but I’ve started developing computer programs for just everyday tasks. It’s so accessible right now. It’s really going to change things. So personally, I’m not too worried because the technology is going to be so dramatically impactful that countries like the UAE and Saudi Arabia who have massive energies, capitalist economies.

Another thing is a lot of these countries are anti-capitalist and that’s going to hurt them a lot in the next few decades because free enterprise is going to massively improve the quality of life of countries with low energy costs and low friction for competitiveness.

Michael Doran:

This is a question but in the form of a statement. You see the normalization between Israel and the UAE as a driver of this kind of economic advancement. Is that right?

Obaid Al Zaabi:

100 percent. It’s massive impact on this specific technology but other technologies too. Personally, my company was the first company to open an office in Tel Aviv. I don’t speak for them today, but we work with them extensively. They’re innovative people, not only in Israel, in the United States, in Europe, they are the drivers of this technology in many cases.

And actually, data access is a big thing. We have some very exciting programs in the UAE where, for example, all nationals donated their DNA to a national blood bank. Our strategy there was rather than spending 20 or $50 million, a billion dollars, sorry, on cancer treatment, and we could instead predict the cancers we will have, and then invest in those specific cancers that would affect our people and we could save a lot of money and be more efficient with our healthcare budget. So this is one example.

Michael Doran:

I’m trying not to give out my DNA because people will link it to all the murders I’ve committed. So do you have any reaction to anything that Obaid just said?

Amjad Taha:

No. I think Obaid explained it very well there when it comes to AI.

Audience Member:

Thank you so much for coming. First of all, I want to say I completely agree with you on the issue of Muslim Brotherhood and Iran, and we should have been more vocal when the Green Revolution didn’t say a peep. So I appreciate that. But I am noticing that, and it’s a little different than what this gentleman just said.

If you look at the divide between the Iranian people and the Iranian government, they’ll say, and the Muslim Brotherhood will say, and the people who are committing the terrorist will say that it is because of their ideology. And I’m noticing that the role of the ideology wasn’t mentioned in the speech.

And the second question is, hope you don’t mind if I bring up something that you didn’t talk about here, but I was listening to little clips of you online. So maybe it’s out of context. But when you were talking about October 7th, and I know and appreciate you were very empathetic to the victims of that, but you were saying something about we should free the Palestinians from Hamas, however, 80 percent of them, even as they’re running while Israel’s bombing them, still supported what happened on October 7th.

And the Hamas got the plans for the homes from civilians. And if you ask some of the survivors, they’ll say there were more civilians there than there were people from Hamas. So I was wondering if you could comment on that.

Amjad Taha:

So when it comes to the ideology, the reason why many of us, we don’t mention it because we think it’s the obvious. That’s the reason. And we fail to counter that or mention it sometime academically. But yeah, the ideology matters.

And as you say, the Iranians, the Persians, the Baluch, the Kurds, the Azeris, Iran is very diverse. They all stand against the ideology and they’re all stand against the Iranian . . . Well, the Islamic regime in Iran rather than calling it Iranian regimes, the Islamic regime in Iran.

So yes, I agree on that. To the second point, yes, a huge number of people in Gaza are radicalized. And the population voted for Hamas to come in power. And as much as there are people who voted for Hitler to be in power too, and as much as there was de-Nazition after the war, there should be de-radicalization or de-Hamas in Gaza because the population has been radicalized.

It’s a fact, but in the same time, there are people there, minorities, and especially from the youth who stand firmly and strongly against the Hamas. And Hamas has in fact executed them publicly for posting a post on Facebook or X or even Instagram or even live on TikTok. But yeah, the way forward in Gaza, and let me just elaborate if possible on this.

Michael Doran:

Yeah. Please. I meant to ask you about that myself.

Amjad Taha:

Yes. Right now the starting conversation shouldn’t be two-state solution. It should be de-radicalization, number one. Number two, if you’re going to speak about, and I will come to the point of de-radicalization now, if we’re going to be speaking about state, two-state solution has existed before the 7th of October.

And a mini example of that, it was Gaza as a state and Israel there. But we’ve seen when Hamas, how Hamas behaved on the 2nd of October, that’s a fail of two-state solution. If you are after a three-state solution, it also existed before the 7th of October and up to this point. So you had Gaza run by Hamas and the West Bank run by the PA, the Palestinian Authority, corrupted authority, unfit to rule. And then you have Israel. So that’s a three-state solution actually existed.

And if you are also into four-state solution, it also exists. You had Gaza by Hamas and then you had Israel, and then you have the West Bank by the Palestinian Authority, and then you have Jenin. It’s actually controlled by militias who are against the Palestinian authority, and then you have four-state.

I can go on and even in Gaza right now, by the way, it’s three-state inside Gaza. It’s a jihadist Islamic, it’s Hamas, and it’s also the Sabireen militias. And by the way, to show that it actually exists even in Gaza is what happened to Shiri’s body. The fact that they gave the wrong body and that it was actually a miscommunication between the militias themselves. And that’s one of the reason all tricking each other and so on.

So even in Gaza, there is 17 militias apart from Hamas. And even in Gaza, the tribes, they don’t have much voices and the others have who are connected to Hamas. So that’s in terms of solutions. Maybe we need a real state man solution rather than a politician in the Middle East.

Real state has worked in Malaysia, in Singapore, and real state man have brought a lot of thriving in the Middle East than the politician did, so maybe. I’m not saying Trump. I’m saying real state man. We need a real state man solution.

In terms of de-radicalization, the international community need to be involved, including the Arab countries rather than just the international. That was what happened in Germany. No. You do not take from the radicals themselves to teach themselves or de-radicalize themselves, you don’t do that. How the international community went to Germany and did it for 50 years is exactly what you need to do because there is a culture of hate, culture of racism, culture for radicalization, culture of war and so on.

And the pathology that can come out of that too, that all needs an international effort. Change the educational curriculum that supports the killing of a Jew that all the way sits here in DC. You need to change that. It’s not about anti-Zionist, it’s not about anti-Israel, it’s about anti-humanity, anti-Jew, anti-coexistent and so on. That need to be changed, the culture on the streets.

The fact that graffitis that you have that says martyrdom and glorifies death, maybe glorifying life will work. Maybe flowers just like the Japanese did after, and the museum that they have is called the Peace Museum that they have in Tokyo and so on. Maybe those examples. Maybe the Good Friday example, we can.

And we need to stop saying, “Ethnoreligion is very different.� So did India and Pakistan, ethnoreligion, they still had some sort of ceasefire and they both thriving as a country. So did the Irish and the Brits, and they made the Good Friday. The Eritrea and Ethiopia, we as UAE contributed to stop them from 15 years of fighting each other. We brought peace to that when we’ve made a peace accord and so on.

Is there is a solution? Yes, there is, but it needs a brave leaders. And international community instead of chanting from the river to the sea, go to the river and go to the sea bring them together, speak to each other, a dialogue and a brave leader that has someone like the ones that they signed the Oslo maybe, or the motion that existed on Oslo.

Michael Doran:

Okay. We’ve got time for one more question if there is one. And no, there’s not. So we’re-

Amjad Taha:

Very lucky.

Michael Doran:

Yeah. We’ll stop now. But please join me in thanking Amjad Taha for a very, very interesting conversation.