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Ukrainian Member of Parliament Oleksii Goncharenko joins Hudson’s Luke Coffey for a conversation on the current state of United States–Ukraine relations, ongoing peace negotiations, and why Ukraine’s fight for sovereignty matters to both the US and Europe. Goncharenko will discuss the war, the many risks and opportunities of peace talks with Russia, and how continued Western support is vital to ensuring a just and lasting peace in Europe’s most consequential conflict since World War II.

Episode Transcript

This transcription is automatically generated and edited lightly for accuracy. Please excuse any errors.

Luke Coffey:

Thank you for joining us today at »ªÌå»á where we’ll have a very interesting conversation with Oleksii Goncharenko, member of Parliament in Ukraine. Oleksii has a very interesting background and he’s a very busy man, not only is he a politician, but he’s also been a businessman and he’s actually a medical school graduate, but instead of pursuing a career in medicine, he’s decided to pursue a career in politics. And I’ve worked with politicians in the past who did similar things and I think they make for fantastic politicians.

In addition to his duties in the Ukrainian parliament, he’s also a Ukrainian representative to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, known as PACE. And in this role, he is the president of the Committee on Migration, Refugees, and Internally Displaced People, which is very relevant to what’s happening to your country today. So Oleksii, thank you so much for joining us here at Hudson, but why don’t we kick off by hearing about why you are here in Washington and what your focus is.

Oleksii Goncharenko:

Thank you very much, it’s an honor for me to be here in Hudson, and I want to thank »ªÌå»á and you personally, Luke, for all you are doing in support of Ukraine during all these very tough years. And I’m a strong believer in US-Ukraine relationships, with all respect to Europe and definitely for Ukraine in strategic aim to become a member of European Union, we are part of European political family, but speaking about security today, the basis, the foundation of the security is our relationships with the United States.

The United States is the source number one for military support for our country and we can’t lose the United States of America. Everybody knows what’s happening now and how it’s not so easy right now and all this stuff, there is a lot of people both in Ukraine and in the United States who are really unhappy with how it develops right now. But the key point is, we need to be together, we need United States. But also, I believe even now, but especially in future, United States will need Ukraine, that is a mutually beneficial thing and that’s why I’m here. I have a number of meetings both with the representatives of the Hill, but also trying to engage people and meeting with people in the state department in current administration to speak with them, to let them know what’s going on, to express what is important for us, where are our red lines, which is a very important moment now during these negotiations.

Luke Coffey:

And I’m glad that you’re here and I’m glad that you are doing this, I know you are a regular visitor here to Washington, and I personally think you’re one of the best spokespeople for Ukraine, especially during this very difficult time. And as you already know, Americans continue to back and support Ukraine and there’s bipartisan support for this. And even though there can be challenges in the relationship, but this is the same with any relationship in life, even though there can be challenges, I think the foundations are strong.

And the point that you just made about how someday America can depend on Ukraine and rely on Ukraine in certain areas, I think is a very valid one. And I think that’s where issues such as the rare earths mineral deal, for example, can play an important role, but also having a strong sovereign, secure, resilient, prosperous Ukraine firmly and officially in the Euro-Atlantic community. And this is a great prize and this is a great benefit for the United States, so I completely agree with you on that.

But let’s jump right in to the big issues of the day, ceasefire. We’ve had a lot of diplomacy taking place, President Zelenskyy and President Trump, president Trump and President Putin, meetings in Jeddah, more meetings planned in Saudi Arabia. The result of these phone calls, depending on which readout you read, either said there was a temporary ceasefire on energy infrastructure or as the US version stated, energy and infrastructure-

Oleksii Goncharenko:

And infrastructure.

Luke Coffey:

. . . That conjunction and makes a big difference.

Oleksii Goncharenko:

Very big.

Luke Coffey:

How do you assess the state of the ceasefire now, and how do you see the next steps as a member of parliament going forward in terms of ceasefire talks?

Oleksii Goncharenko:

Very big difference. I can tell you, just recently and unfortunately often, my native city Odessa is attacked and again, Russia attacked our infrastructure, maybe not energy infrastructure, but infrastructure, so this conjunction and is very, very important. I think my personal view and understanding, we in Ukraine need peace, that is the fact, and we need to do everything we can to achieve it as soon as possible, but this should be a peace, not a surrender, that is a big difference for us.

Because Russia wants Ukrainian surrender, and you can see it even from this conversation between President Trump and Putin, that Russia tries to continue to push their narratives for the moment they chose from the menu the most beneficial for them, point about stopping attacks on energy infrastructure, just energy infrastructure without and. Because Russians attacks on Ukrainian infrastructure, but the winter is over, so they will not be so effective to make Ukrainian people suffer because that is their aim. But at the same time, Ukrainian attacks on Russian oil refineries and things like this is painful for Russia, so they chose just these and they did not agree on complete ceasefire like it was proposed by President Trump and it was supported by Ukraine, Russia did not agree.

I think they will try to in time, I think they will drag in, they will try to say, let’s wait, there is a lot of nuances, yes, but, and all this stuff. But I’m happy that we are on the rails of coming to peace, I welcome the fact of negotiations, but that’s very important, and United States should be prepared to put pressure on Putin, without putting pressure on Putin, there will be no result.

Luke Coffey:

And as you know, because we met last week, a Hudson delegation-

Oleksii Goncharenko:

In Kyiv.

Luke Coffey:

. . . In Kyiv, yes, a Hudson delegation was in Ukraine last week.

Oleksii Goncharenko:

And thank you for coming.

Luke Coffey:

It was our pleasure. And it’s very important that the think tankers here in Washington, thousands of kilometers away, get on the ground so we can get a better appreciation of what is happening. But the biggest impression we got from speaking to Ukrainians from all across society, senior government officials, opposition leaders, members of the military, civil society, was that the Ukrainians genuinely want peace. And I think the result of President Trump’s phone call with President Putin was a reminder that the main obstacle to peace right now is President Putin.

Oleksii Goncharenko:

Absolutely.

Luke Coffey:

And when he does the least to appease or to go along with Donald Trump, in this case just picking energy at a time when it’s spring and things are warming up, it shows that perhaps President Putin is not serious yet. So it’s going to be interesting to see how the Trump administration handles that. But when we talk about ceasefires and peace agreements, a lot of things are discussed about the future of Ukraine, sovereignty, security guarantees. As a member of parliament, what are your red lines in terms of what can or cannot be agreed between your country and Russia?

Oleksii Goncharenko:

This is very important question, and that’s the main thing which I think Ukraine should now explain to the United States, first of all, to President Trump and his administration who are carrying out these negotiations. So they should know as mediators, as negotiators, as our allies at the same time, what is acceptable for us and where are the red lines? So I think these red lines are three, if to speak widely, first, non-recognition of occupied territories as Russian. We realize that after end of hostilities, Russia will continue to control part of our territories, but they should have a status of illegally occupied territories, this is very important for us. So territorial integrity, not de facto because de facto is violated, but the yurta should be secured.

The second thing is sovereignty. That I think will be the most important for Russia, they will try to limit Ukrainian sovereignty, first of all limiting Ukrainian army and something like this, military production and everything. It’s unacceptable for us, we are a sovereign state, meaning that we are making our own choices about what army to have, what alliances to join. Another question is, are these alliances ready to take us? That’s another story, but we should be free to knock the doors.

Luke Coffey:

To make the choice.

Oleksii Goncharenko:

Yeah, that should be. And number three is security guarantees. Because we clearly know that Russia, for them, this is a long war, which lasts not for decades, but maybe for hundreds of years and they will attack again if there will not be something which will be very painful for them which will prevent them from doing this. And it can be different things, we can speak about this because I think this is the last part, security guarantees, is the part where the biggest improvisation is possible because there are many options, there can be some hybrid things, it can be done first of all by Europe, but at least with some American participation that I think is very important to have United States aboard, at least in some specific things. So that’s what I think, again, three things, non-recognition of occupied territories as Russian, sovereignty, and security guarantees, that’s it.

Luke Coffey:

Let’s unpack this a little bit more. So on the non-recognition, this should be fairly straightforward, the US has a precedent of doing this in the past, the Wells declaration of 1940 was a formal US government declaration that the US would not recognize Soviet control over the three Baltic States. And even throughout the Cold War, the US never recognized Soviet control over Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. During the first Trump administration, secretary Pompeo-

Oleksii Goncharenko:

Pompeo, yeah.

Luke Coffey:

. . . Issued the Crimea declaration, which announced that the US would never formally recognize Russian control over Crimea. So this is a simple matter of a political declaration. And then after that, working with Ukraine and the international community in the longer term to pursue diplomatic means to end the Russian occupation of Ukrainian territory. On the second part about sovereignty, this also could be fairly straightforward, Ukraine, like any country in the world, should have the right to choose how and by whom they are governed and in which organizations they would like to join, whether or not the organization has the open door it brings them in is another question, but certainly Ukraine as a sovereign nation should have that right. So let’s hope that this issue can be addressed quickly and swiftly as well.

But the third point, the security guarantee, you mentioned could be hybrid, you would like some US support. I want to go a little deeper on this, if I may, and I know it’s all speculative at this point, but would you like to see European boots on the ground in Ukraine? What sort of monitoring mission could there be as someone that represents a constituency in Odessa, Ukraine’s most important port city? What about the Black Sea, how does the post-war settlement, the ceasefire, the security guarantees impact the Black Sea and cities like Odessa?

Oleksii Goncharenko:

Exactly. That’s the third point, is probably the most interesting one and from some point of view, they are most tricky. So European boots on the ground, yes, we want to have them. And how many? It depends from European countries, I don’t think there will be hundreds of thousands of troops, I think it’s impossible, but at least we want to have some bases. Odessa already mentioned, you already mentioned, I know that France is expressing a lot of interest to this region, it can be Kyiv, it can be Dnipro, so this is very important.

Also, some surveillance over the de facto frozen frontline, and there should be it’s all so organized, so this is a strong and important part. By the way, Russia is strongly opposing this, as you know, but here is the question of sovereignty. Russia says, we don’t want French military to be in Ukraine. Sorry, who are you? What’s your voice here? If Ukraine wants and if France is ready, so what is the question? It’s our sovereign choice to have French boots on the ground or not, the same about American, British or anybody else, so this is the important part.

From American side, I would like to see some participation in this military component speaking. For example, it can be led by American General, it can be involving some air force or maybe not boots on the ground, like boots on the ground, but maybe some wings in the skies, maybe some ships in vessels in the sea and so on, but some participation. And second, that’s what we see, rare earth deal or anything else, some economic deals which will create more interest in Ukraine from US point of view and more cooperation and making Ukraine more in economical orbit, I would say, of the United States.

That can be this hybrid way to build these security guarantees where, for example, things like Senator Lindsey Graham proposed that if Ukraine will be attacked again, that will mean automatic invitation of Ukraine to join NATO if Ukraine will not join NATO until that moment. So things like this, which will make impossible for other countries to ignore possible new Russian invasion and which will make this invasion for Russia extremely painful.

Luke Coffey:

Yeah. And a simple question, can Russia be trusted? And if not, which I’m going to guess your answer, how do we mitigate the impact of our inability to trust Russia through this process?

Oleksii Goncharenko:

Now I will try to surprise you, that it can’t be trusted, Russia can be trusted that they’re still empire, and this empire will never stop. That’s their attitude, that is their looking at the world.

Luke Coffey:

It’s an imperial mindset.

Oleksii Goncharenko:

It’s absolutely imperial. Not even an imperial mindset, but from the point of view of soft power and things like this, no, it’s a very old-fashioned imperial mindset where either you expand or you shrink. They don’t understand anything else, and they don’t want to shrink, they just don’t want to expand. So today it’s Ukraine, but yesterday it was Georgia, tomorrow it can be Kazakhstan, tomorrow it can be again, Georgia, we don’t know, but definitely Baltic States under their threat and so on. So they want to expand and in this they can be trusted, so we need to prevent them from doing this. I hope the day will come someday in future when Russia will change, it happened with Germany. Germany also was empire and absolutely imperial mindset, and it was not so long ago, right?

Luke Coffey:

Yeah.

Oleksii Goncharenko:

Less than a hundred years ago, now we have another Germany. The moment that we will have another Russia, it can come, but I don’t know. And not it can come, it will come, I’m sure about this, but the question is when, maybe it will be in 10 years, maybe tomorrow, maybe in 20, I don’t know. So that is something which everybody should know and remember, Russia will not stop until it will be stopped.

Luke Coffey:

Yeah. And going back to your hometown, Odessa, I already alluded to it being the most important port for Ukraine.

Oleksii Goncharenko:

I’m sorry, and the most important port for Russia. I just want to one thing which is not usually and actively discussed, why Russia is so obsessed about Ukraine. There are historical reasons, you can find some psychological reasons, KGB, Putin and all this stuff. But there are very pragmatic things, and one of them is Odessa, why? Because today Russia is one of the biggest players on the world food market, if you will combine Russia power at this market today, if they will take more Ukrainian land and will control the northern part of the Black Sea and the most important agricultural port in the world, which is Odessa, because from the times of ancient Greeks, the civilized world received grain from this port.

Luke Coffey:

Yes, exactly.

Oleksii Goncharenko:

And this is the biggest port in the biggest city on the Black Sea shore, and just imagine before invasion, 400 million people in the world were dependent from calories from Ukrainian crops, 400 million, it’s an enormous number. So if Russia will combine these with their own power in this market already today, that will make them not just energy superpower, but also food superpower, which will be a huge geopolitical leverage that they will receive, that’s why they’re so obsessed about Ukraine in general, and especially this part of Ukraine.

Luke Coffey:

Yeah, and it’s a great example of how Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is impactful outside the region. And there’s no doubt in my mind that they were seeking to capture Odessa, but the very brave defense of your countrymen stopping that advance in Mykolaiv nearby Odessa where we visited last week, where we saw, at least on the southern front, that high watermark of the Russian advance before they were pushed back to the Dnieper River.

Oleksii Goncharenko:

And you visited even Kherson, which is a very endangered place. And our biggest strategical success during this war is not counting that we stopped Russia and prevented them to take Ukraine, is that we kicked them out from the right bank of Dnieper River because they had this platzdarm, this bridgehead all over the right bank, which was super dangerous, and now they don’t have it.

Luke Coffey:

Especially for Odessa.

Oleksii Goncharenko:

Especially for Odessa, and it means for Moldova, for Romania, and for all the region.

Luke Coffey:

How has Odessa changed not only since 2014, but since 2022? It’s a very interesting city, when American policymakers or media talk about Ukraine or visit Ukraine, usually it’s just Kyiv. I highly recommend get to Odessa if you can.

Oleksii Goncharenko:

Welcome please.

Luke Coffey:

It’s a beautiful city, I’ve been there at different times of the year, and summertime in Odessa is a magical place. How has the city changed and how do you see the city bouncing back whenever there is a stable peace in place?

Oleksii Goncharenko:

In many parts of Ukraine and also in Odessa, there is a lot of Russian-speaking people, and it made first Russia and then many other people in the world to think that it means some special affection to Russia. It does not exist anymore, it’s gone, for us, Russians are those who are killing us, that’s it. And it’s the same for Ukrainian-speaking Odessa citizens and for Russian-speaking Odessa citizens, it’s absolutely the same. It’s the same in Kharkiv, the biggest city in the Eastern Ukraine, it’s the same in Dnipro and so on.

Odessa has changed, Odessa was ready to fight if needed, even like guerrilla fighting. Fortunately thanks to our army, Russians were not allowed to come close to the city, still they are obsessed, still they are attacking port infrastructure, other infrastructure in the city, but Odessa is standing and Odessa is standing tall. And we are proud to be southern capital of Ukraine, we are proud to be the capital of the Black Sea because the biggest city and the biggest harbor is the capital of the Black Sea. And we are sure that after the war, we will have enormous development, and even President Trump mentioned Odessa saying about perspectives of Ukraine and develop-

Luke Coffey:

There could be a Trump Tower there before you know it, yes.

Oleksii Goncharenko:

. . . That would be amazing, we would love to have Trump Tower in Odessa and to develop our city. And it was for a long time, it was one of the biggest commercial centers of the whole Europe.

Luke Coffey:

Yeah, of course. And moving out from Odessa, the people of Ukraine have undergone immense suffering from the nightly Russian missile and drone attacks to tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian children being abducted, religious persecution on different religious groups, evangelicals, Baptists, for example, in places where Russia is controlling Ukrainian territory, millions of people internally displaced or refugees across Europe, uncertainty about what the future may hold, but yet you still get a feeling of this resilience and this motivation to continue on. It’s maybe because Ukrainians feel like they don’t have a choice, it’s been repeated a hundred times, but I’ll say it again, if Russia stops fighting, the war ends, right now if Ukraine stops fighting, then Ukraine ends.

Oleksii Goncharenko:

Ukraine ends.

Luke Coffey:

Exactly. Heading now into the fourth year of the war, how do you judge the mood, the morale of the Ukrainian people?

Oleksii Goncharenko:

You’ve been to Ukraine recently, so maybe it’s even better to see from some distance in coming, my personal feeling is. . .

Luke Coffey:

As a parliamentarian dealing with constituents, real world problems?

Oleksii Goncharenko:

My personal feeling is, we are really tired, we are really exhausted. It’s not three years of war, it’s 11 years of war, it’s a long, long time and it’s difficult. But again, it doesn’t mean that we are ready to surrender, because as you said, we are fighting like a lot is said about Ukrainian courage and so on. With all respect, I love my country, I’m proud to be Ukrainian, but we are the same people as all others, but we don’t have any other choice.

We clearly know what Russians will do with us, they will kill people like me, and they will take our children to go and to kill Georgians, Estonians, Polish people, Lithuanians and so on. We will never allow this to happen, that’s the story, that is the mood, that is the attitude. So we want peace, but it should be a peace, not a ceasefire, and it should be a peace, not a surrender, that’s what we want. And I’m sure we will get it, and I’m sure we will get it with American support because the United States is our biggest partner and we have enormous respect. And here being in DC and in »ªÌå»á, I want to thank American people for all support we are receiving for all these years, that is something which we will never forget.

Luke Coffey:

Well, thank you so much for taking-

Oleksii Goncharenko:

Thank you.

Luke Coffey:

. . . Time off your busy schedule to come here and speak with me today. And for those watching online, thank you for joining us, if you’re interested in more of the work that we do on Ukraine and other issues, check out hudson.org, and please look forward to any future events that we may have on the issue of Ukraine or other national security matters. So thank you.

Oleksii Goncharenko:

Thank you very much.